For MLK Day, scholar host Benny Klein ’24 interviews Wendell McCain ’92, the son of activist Franklin McCain of the Greensboro Four. Wendell shares about what it was like to grow up around one of the leaders of the civil rights movement and the lessons he learned from his father about pursuing justice. He also talks about his journey through the financial world and how he’s found ways to support and uplift those around him.

Wendell is the chair and CEO of Onset Capital Partners, a global asset management firm based in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. The alumnus received his bachelor’s degree in economics from UNC–Chapel Hill, followed by an MBA from Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management.

This is the first episode hosted by Benny Klein ’24 and produced by Lia Salvatierra ’24 of the Morehead-Cain Scholar Media Team. In his new series, Benny speaks with Morehead-Cain Alumni about how they’ve been able to balance their career aspirations while creating a positive impact on the world.

Listen to the episode.

Music credits

This episode features songs by Nicholas Byrne ’19 of Arts + Crafts and Scott Hallyburton ’22, guitarist of the band South of the Soul.

How to listen

On your mobile device, you can listen and subscribe to Catalyze on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. For any other podcast app, you can find the show using our RSS feed.

Catalyze is hosted and produced by Sarah O’Carroll for the Morehead-Cain Foundation, home of the first merit scholarship program in the United States and located at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. You can let us know what you thought of the episode by finding us on Twitter or Instagram at @moreheadcain or you can email us at communications@moreheadcain.org.

Episode Transcription

(Benny)

Mr. McCain, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.

(Wendell)

It’s my pleasure, Benny. Thanks for having me.

(Benny)

Of course. So, for those who don’t know, Mr. McCain is actually the dad of my best friend, Davis. So, I’ve gotten to know him pretty well over the years.

(Wendell)

I’ve cooked a lot of pancakes for Benny.

(Benny)

Cooked a lot of breakfast, that’s for sure. The world famous crunchy french toast. That’s right. If you’ve ever spent any time around the McCains, you know how special their family is and why I’m so excited that Mr. McCain agreed to be my first guest. Mr. McCain, I’d love to start out talking about your dad, who obviously was a pioneer in the civil rights movement.

Could you just talk a little bit about what it was like growing up with him as your father, you and your brothers, and maybe something that has gotten left out of the narrative after all the media coverage and fame that it’s brought, just what’s one thing that you feel isn’t included as well?

(Wendell)

That’s a great question. I’m going to take that one at the end. But I would say, growing up, there was a tremendous—from the time that I could understand inequality and from the time that I could understand, sort of, being an activist—it was something that my father impressed upon all of us: that it was a right, a privilege, and an expectation that we contribute. And along the lines of social activism and particularly the focus or at least one area that all of us focused on, is really kind of trying to be a voice for those who, communities that have been marginalized or disenfranchised.

And so this notion of—I laugh sometimes today because—this notion of social equity and racial equity is nothing new to our family. It’s something that has been the core of our being from the time that we could even have some idea of what that all meant. What I would say, you asked me something that maybe most people don’t think or know about my father was that, oddly enough, he was physically an imposing figure who’s 6’ 4” and about 400 pounds and had a big voice. And my dad was a very intense guy, but inside particularly was a teddy bear at certain points in times, at the right times, I would argue, and I don’t think most people would have really thought that about him. Most people didn’t see necessarily the super soft side, and I’m sure that was intentional, but he was a great father.

(Benny)

Could you also talk a little bit about your mom, who gets a little less of the spotlight, but I’d love to know what she was like.

(Wendell)

Yeah, my mother was a fantastic woman, an incredibly strong woman—grew up in a family where she had four big men, and she was a lone wolf woman in our family. But oftentimes, she could carry the biggest stick. With that being said, she truly was my dad’s partner. She didn’t walk in front, she didn’t walk behind; she walked beside him. And they met in college, and she really mobilized the women from Bennett College with my dad and his three buddies, started the sit-ins movement. And she was an educator.

And one big thing in our family, education was a big deal. The thing that we’re proud of is a history of education. Very unusual. Grandparents and great grandparents in the South, African Americans who were college educated, which was really unusual. So going to college was like going to first grade, as far as my family was concerned. Can’t even call it an expectation. It was kind of, “Of course you are, right?”

But my mother was a librarian initially and then taught high school English. And then she took over as a really big role as head of all of staff and curriculum for the Charlotte-Mecklenburg school system and then later finished her career as a principal in an elementary school. And the one thing I’d say, she loved kids, wasn’t out of the ordinary for us to come home and find three random kids that we’d never seen in our lives at our dinner table, having dinner with us. And it wasn’t random that there were times when I went into my closet, and clothes were missing because my mother had given my clothes away to kids at our school that needed clothes. But she was very passionate about kids and was an avid reader and probably read seven to eight books a week and would go to bed at 2:30 and 3:00 and be up at 6:30 to make breakfast for us. And she did that for 20 plus years. So, high energy woman and big reader and very compassionate and loved kids.

(Benny)

Fantastic. You read seven to eight books a week, too, right?

(Wendell)

Only in my dreams.

(Benny)

You and me both. Could you mention just a moment where obviously maybe not a burden is the right word, but it’s a lot to take in. When did it become real for you? Are there moments?

(Wendell)

Yeah, I’ll give you one of those moments where you kind of get that gut punch about how big and how expectations are great. Consider my family heritage. Barbara Walters, who maybe as I was teasing you at one point, maybe generational gap was the equivalent of an Oprah Winfrey today, right?

(Benny)

Got it.

(Wendell)

And she came to our house and did an interview with my father, and my whole family was seated around my dad. And at the end of the interview, she asked my older brother and I a question. I was probably about eleven, and my older brother is four years my senior. She asked him what his favorite hobby was, and he said that we’re all big swimmers. You wouldn’t know by our physique today that we used to be swimmers. And then she looked at me, and I was probably about eleven, and she said, “Well, Wendell, your father changed the course of American history and the course of the world. What are you going to do?” And I was just saying to myself, “Well, that’s great. You gave my brother the powder-puff question, and you laid the weight of the world on my shoulders.” And I said to her, “Well, I’m going to start off by graduating high school and then college, and then I’ll take it from there. How about that?”

But that moment was certainly a moment where I felt the expectation of weight, in terms of what people thought, that I had a responsibility to contribute and to continue our family’s legacy. But throughout my life, I haven’t viewed it as a burden. I’ve viewed it as a challenge and a responsibility. And so I think that has kept me from what others may—weight can be suffocating, right? And so I think you have to really position it a little differently. And I think to me, it’s responsibility more than weight.

(Benny)

One of those the questions that I had and one of the reasons why I wanted to start the podcast is that question that she asked you, is: what are you going to do to change the world? It feels grand and it definitely is a grand question, so I’d love to hear a little bit more about how you got to where you are now. What was applying to college like out of North Mecklenburg High?

(Wendell)

Yeah.

(Benny)

What was the decision to become a Morehead? I know you were interested in the ivy leagues and decided to come to Chapel Hill. What was that like?

(Wendell)

I remember distinctly, my dad spoke, and I accompanied him on the campus of Princeton when I was in middle school. And I went there, and I fell in love with just like—I love history and the history of Princeton, and the beauty of the architecture of the school. From that moment, I was like, “This is where I want to go to college,” and was fortunate enough to be accepted. And at the time, going to Carolina almost felt like a continuation of high school in the sense that I knew a lot of people going, and for a big part of my life prior to that, I’ve always been adventurous.

So I had the chance to travel a lot, probably by the time I was in high school, I’d been to 40, 50 countries. And so, going to Carolina at that time felt like, “Oh, man, this is not the window going, stepping out, doing something different, seeking something completely different than what I’ve known.” And what was really the deciding factor was the feeling that I had Finals Weekend, the culture of the Morehead family, and really, the summer internships. And that was the thing to me that I thought would be a differentiator, not just in my life experience, but also post-college and making the transition to the working world. That resume reads very differently. A lot of kids go to Princeton, right? But at the time, the Morehead scholarship was distinctively different than anything else in the country. And that was a huge draw for me. And the Carolina experience was an amazing one.

(Benny)

What was Chapel Hill like for you? What were you interested in studying? Did you know that you wanted to go into economics, or was that a longer decision?

(Wendell)

No, I didn’t. I had gotten advice not to study business as an undergraduate major. Okay, you can argue the virtues, right or wrong. And so economics was the best proxy that I thought that something was close to business, but that was probably not as focused as maybe a business major would be. So that’s kind of how I ended up in econ, and I had a minor in African studies and in geology. And I’m sure you can see the connection. Yes, I know you can probably see the connection between all of those. And if you can, then you deserve this week’s award and next week’s award. But I loved it. I had a great experience in the econ department, and my favorite professors were Sandy Darity, which I did a senior sort of thesis with him, and he’s unfortunately joined the evil empire 8 miles away. But I tell him I forgive him. And Dr. Watt and Dr. Goldman were fantastic professors who really, I think, were challenging but fair, and I learned a lot from them.

(Benny)

So you study econ; you have a great time in Chapel Hill. Then comes the big decision that I’m worried about, and a lot of my friends are, is what do you do next? So how do you decide to go into finance and feel confident in that decision?

(Wendell)

Yeah, so for me—and it’s a conversation, I would say—I was very pragmatic in the sense that this whole notion of: how do I contribute and have the maximum impact? And so I’ve always been a believer in scale and everything from business to the impact I want to make on the world. And for me, that means minimally, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, right. And so, before my father died, I said, “Look, I think the modern day civil rights movement is economic liberation.” And when I started really studying, how do you liberate people economically? Undoubtedly, it always seems to lead back to who either controls capital or who allocates capital. And so for me, a career in finance was a mechanism for me to understand how capital allocation decisions get made, how people generate capital and create wealth. That was the driver for me to choose a career in finance.

And when I looked across the landscape, what was incredibly disappointing and only underlined and highlighted that it was the route to go was the lack of diversity in financial services. And I saw that, and I said, “How can you understand the system of capitalism and/or make a difference if there’s not significant representation from all communities, and in this case, the minority community?” And so I knew and later realized that, unfortunately, getting a chair in the industry: it is clubby. It is not a level playing field. We have a long, long way to go. And the reason it’s clubby is because the reality is that the people in the circle realize that in order to maintain power and the power structure, you want to be selective about who you let in. And if you’re really happy with the way things have gone on forever and a day, the last thing you want to do is to bring people in the circle who might change the way things happen. And so I understood that. I think maybe one of the very few smart things I’ve done in my life. But I understood that early on that the change was going to have to come as a function of being a part of the circle, not outside of the circle. On that front, I decided there was a program called Inroads that still exists today. And it was really focused on helping high school seniors secure a four-year internship. And those internships would happen over the summers, starting with the summer prior to freshman year and then going through the summer prior to your senior year in college. And so the process was simple. You interviewed with several companies, companies would make you offers, and then you’d decide which company you wanted to go to, and then you’d do four rotations over the summers in that one company. And so my sponsoring company was a little bank called NCNB, North Carolina National Bank, which became Nations Bank and later became Bank of America. And I had the good fortune of having Hugh McColl, who was the CEO, as my mentor. And the bank grew from a billion dollars to $100 billion in that four straight years.

(Benny)

You got hooked.

(Wendell)

Yeah, I did. I witnessed tremendous growth, and it solidified for me that I wanted to pursue a career in finance. And I knew for me that the Mecca of finance has always been Wall Street. And so I made that decision to not take the offer from the bank after college, which was a tough thing to go tell Mr. McColl, who had mentored me for four years, and he was a five foot seven Marine who was a really tough guy. And I wasn’t sure what his response was going to be to my decision, but he couldn’t have been more of a prince and encouraged me to go to Wall Street and said, “Look, I’m happy to make a spot for you when you’re ready to come back home.” So, I never came back home, but I did have a great experience in Wall Street, and it’s a place where I would tell you you mature and you grow up very quickly, amongst many other sort of fine attributes that you learn along the way.

(Benny)

I’d love to go down your path out of UNC now and talk a little bit about Wall Street. And there’s a lot of stereotypes, rumors, whatever you want to call it, about what the Wall Street culture is like. What was it like for you? And then, if you could just touch on a little bit your first couple of years out of college before Kellogg.

(Wendell)

So, I would tell you, one of the most difficult things I had to do early on was—as I mentioned, Mr. McColl was a tremendous mentor to me—and the hardest thing I had to do was walk into his office in my senior year and tell him that I wasn’t going to take the offer to stay with the bank and that I wanted to go to Wall Street. I wasn’t really sure how he was going to respond, but as he was and is a class act, he said, “Listen, I get it. Go to Wall Street, get the wiggly wigglies out of your pants, and then when you’re done, come on back home, and I’ll make some room for you wherever you want to go,” which was great. I didn’t ever come back, but he just was incredibly supportive.

So I chose interestingly, once again, a little bit of a different path. All my friends were, the two final offers that I was deciding between were JP Morgan and Lazard Freres. And Lazard was very different from most of your traditional financial analyst programs on the street. Most of those programs brought in 200 to 300 newly minted college graduates at Lazard, and the M & A group, there were eight of us. And the reason I ended up making that decision, interestingly enough, was Trey Loughran, who was a Morehead who was two years ahead of me, had gone to Lazard. And I had a great relationship with Trey through college. And Lazard was in a unique place. We only did really Fortune, sort of, 50 global M & A. And what was really different, that I didn’t fully appreciate when I decided to go, was that most Wall Street firms, if you’re in the way deals or staff, you have a managing director, you have a director, you have a vice president, you have an associate, you have an analyst. And that is what they’ll call a deal team, right? And at Lazard, sometimes it was a managing director and just an analyst.

(Benny)

But was it the same amount of wealth that you guys were dealing with, or is it smaller overall?

(Wendell)

Overall, it was a smaller, much smaller firm, but much bigger deals.

(Benny)

Were you ever questioning where the diversity, equity, and inclusion comes in at this point? And how did you kind of cope with that?

(Wendell)

Yeah, so I would tell you, it was really, for me, magnified. When I was at Lazard, Lazard was such a small place and interestingly, I worked with—the other thing about Lazar that was very unique is what I realized—I was even sort of a special case because of the eight members of my class, for example, one guy was the grandson of the former leader of France, [Georges] Pompidou. Another father was a multibillionaire who had a huge conglomerate spanning three continents. Another was an original descendant of the J. P. Morgan family. So I was kind of saying to myself, “I don’t understand why I’m here.” You know what I mean? But all that to say is that there was diversity from ethnicity, diversity from geographical upbringing, people born in different continents. And so, in the Lazard experience, not so much. But when I got to Lazard, I was on a trading floor. There were probably 600 people on that trading floor, and there were exactly three African Americans. And it was at that point that it was really clear that this place called Wall Street is far from being diverse. And with that, I was a unique case in the sense. And my boss told me on the first day, he said, “Well, somebody here really likes you. But just so you know, you’re the youngest person that we’ve ever allowed to be in this group ever in the history of the firm. And so my eyes are going to be on you, and if you screw up, you’re going to be out the door.” So that was my first indoctrination to my new group. And I couldn’t figure out whether someone was irritated because maybe someone who was older, they wanted to . . .

(Benny)

How old were you?

(Wendell)

I was 24, 24. So I didn’t know whether it was because they wanted someone of their friends to have that chair, or whether it was because of the way I looked, or whether it was a combination of both, but it was definitely not the welcoming committee.

(Benny)

It sounds like, one thing that you mentioned earlier, is kind of a seat at the table or ability to see capital move capital and have a true influence. So I’m sure that being with French royalty and Morgan heirs and all of that, you quickly realize that you have access to make a difference. When does that sort of start?

(Wendell)

Yeah. So for me, I think it started early in the sense that I made very, the decisions I made were well-orchestrated in the sense that I knew that there were certain skills that I needed to make the biggest difference. And so every time I made a decision in my career, it was with the bigger picture in place, which is, how do I position myself to be in a place where I’m an allocator of capital or an investor? Because unfortunately, in the context of the US sort of business world, that he or she who controls the goal oftentimes controls the narrative, oftentimes controls the regulatory environment, oftentimes controls who becomes wealthy and who doesn’t, or makes the rules. And I don’t love it at all. But I know that you have a decision to make is to understand the way things operate.

And you can either put yourself in a position where you have influence, and that influence can lead to positive change. And there are many ways, not to say that capital and money is the only way to do that. But I think that I felt like as I looked across that trading floor and saw three people of color, that there weren’t many people who had the ability to access this channel. And so, as I said to my father before he died, that’s the thing. There’s lots of people that look like me that can go march in the streets. But unfortunately, there are fewer people who get access to have a venue or had access to be able to control capital that are of color. And so, given that I had the privilege of getting a chair, I had to make the most of that chair.

(Benny)

Great. Could you talk a little bit about how you transition from Wall Street, you end up in Chicago at Kellogg?

(Wendell)

Yeah. So I knew that it was important, just as I thought about sort of my career evolution, ability to kind of continue, get increasing responsibilities, and also, quite frankly, just witnessing and having a desire to pursue a career in private equity. The one thing—when you talk about lessons learned, Benny, and it didn’t take me long to figure this out—which I didn’t mention, I did it to appease my father and godfather: I did apply to law school and got into some good law schools but deferred and never went. But I knew I didn’t want to be a corporate lawyer after my one year at Lazard because I was leaving the office at 2:00, and then giving my attorneys my work product and having them turn it around between the hours of two and five. And I just said to myself, “I don’t think I want to be that guy. I don’t think I want to be that guy or that gal.” Now, with that being said, I also recognize that I worked 110 hours a week to create a work product for these quote unquote private equity guys who always seemed to be in a car on the way home at 4:00. But they made 20 times to 50 times the amount of money that I made. So I was like, this private equity thing is pretty interesting. Yeah, right, how do I find that track? I thought business school would be.

Business school is oftentimes, an MBA program is oftentimes an ability to transition or change direction or change industries. And I didn’t want to change industries, but I knew it would be critically important. The private equity and venture capital world is unfortunately still the club-iest of the club-y. Like I told people, it’s harder than getting in the MBA, I feel like sometimes. And so, I knew I had to have that stamp in order to have a shot. So in business school, I had the good fortune of having a classmate by the name of Charlie Gifford, whose father was the CEO of BankBoston. And we became really good friends. And one day I said to him after we went out for dinner and had a couple of drinks, and I said, “Charlie,” I said, “Everybody and their mother, I’m sure, has asked you, can you help get them an interview at the private equity arm of the bank?” And he said, “Yeah, everybody and their mother has asked me that.” And I said, “Okay.” He says, “But you’re the one person I’ll call for. And I’ll call my dad and see if he can at least get you an interview.” And so he was kind enough to do it. And the head of the private equity group talked to me on the phone, and he said, “Listen, I’ve never hired anybody except Tuck grads, and we’re not hiring anybody this year. But the CEO, who’s my boss, said he wanted me to take an interview with you, so if you want to fly to from Evanston to Boston, I’ll give you 20 minutes.” So I was thinking to myself, a whole 20 minutes, I’m going to spend four and a half hours on an airplane back and forth, 20 minutes for those 20 minutes. But I said, “Look, that’s my shot, and I got to take it.” And so I went for the interview, and that 20 minutes ended up turning into two and a half hours with him, which then turned into another 3 hours because he introduced me to other folks in the firm. And that night, he gave me an offer, and he said, “I want you. I want you here.” A lot of people would have said, “20 minutes, no way in hell. I’m good. No, thanks.” And I just said, “You know what? I got 20 minutes. How do I make the most of it?” And he ended up being a great mentor to me.

And for me, the reason I chose—it was so important for me to choose BankBoston versus other offers—was I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to be a venture capital guy, which would be investing in early stage companies. Sometimes a man and a woman have an idea scratched on a sheet of paper and say, “Hey, we need $200,000 to get started.” Right. Which was very fascinating to me because I like building things and helping people build companies, or a private equity professional, which really focuses on established businesses that are generating profits. And at the time, we were much more financial engineering, I would argue, and less company building. And so I didn’t know which of the two I would like more. But the beauty of BankBoston was, is that as a firm, we did all of those things.

So we did early stage venture capital and just an idea and writing the first check to get a company started to companies that were growing but not quite profitable to companies that had old economy companies, I would say, like manufacturers who have been around for 50 years and really mundane, but they generate profit every year steady. And then we invested in other fund groups. And so, I had the chance to do all of those things. And I was industry agnostic. So I’ve invested in healthcare, life sciences, MedTech devices, software, hardware, restaurants, manufacturers, distributors, pool cleaners, nurseries. And if you’re someone who’s intellectually curious, you get to meet some of the smartest people in many different fields. So I often tell people that I’m about six inches deep and about two miles wide on my knowledge of different industries. And my wife said with my weight the way it is, the two miles wide is becoming a literal thing. But that’s another story.

(Benny)

Could you talk a little bit about, not only in your role in OnSet Capital, but in other positions and boards that you’ve sat on, how you try and bring people up?

(Wendell)

Yeah. And look, I don’t place judgment. I love making money. But for me, making money has never been about stuff or the ability to acquire stuff. And look, does it mean that I don’t like nice things? Of course not. But what really drives me and what I have seen consistently from the time I can remember that if Wendell McCain has an ability to influence at scale. And at scale is really critical because I would argue everyone has an opportunity to be a force of good and change in their local communities or in their local circles. But for me, I’ve always wanted to do it at scale. And scale means impacting tens, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. That’s what really drives me.

And so I know that if my net worth has an extra couple of zeros, you can argue and debate whether it’s right or wrong. But I have a bigger microphone, and I have a bigger ability to influence legislators who make the rules that impact the lives of tens of millions, of hundreds of millions of people in this country. So for me, that’s what drives me. Because I know the bigger the microphone that I have, the more I can challenge people to do the right thing. And the right thing is, look, I’m not suggesting that we necessarily, what I’m looking for is I want everyone to have an equal opportunity to be successful. And I think that’s good for America. I’m not advocating redistribution of wealth. I’m advocating giving everyone an equal opportunity to have their slice of the American dream. That’s what drives me.

(Benny)

Absolutely. There’s been a renewed or maybe even a new sense of focus on big business and diversity, donating or committing money to certain scholarships or different opportunities for people in minority communities. The summer before was a really loud summer. But how do you think it’s been as far as an impactful summer, or is the movement doing what your dad would hope it would?

(Wendell)

That’s a great question. I struggle with that because I think truthfully, it’s too early, too soon to tell. And what I mean by that is George Floyd wasn’t that long ago. And unfortunately—and maybe this is the difference between Benny at 20 and Wendell at 51—is that the beauty of young people, as my father would say, and I understand what he means by this statement, young people have unbridled optimism, and Benny would probably believe this is a chance, for the first time in this country, to have meaningful, sustainable change in the way that the people of color in this country are treated. And the optimistic Wendell, who by nature I am, would agree with you; the realistic Wendell would be very skeptical that this time is going to be any different. That the fad and fashion to say that we want to be progressive and try to address these issues is hot at the moment. But let’s see where we are in 24 months forward. And whether there’s substantive change. And I think that it takes a long time to change, unfortunately, some people’s behavior that has been created over many, many years. And so I always want to remain optimistic, but I always am a realist when it comes to what’s likely to happen. And I hope I’m wrong. It’s one of the few times you’ll hear me say I hope I’m wrong, you know what I mean?

(Benny)

I got to spend last summer in Minneapolis, which was an interesting place to be at an interesting time. And we got to speak with Jerry Blackwell a couple of weeks ago and hear his take on prosecuting Derek Chauvin, which was a great opportunity. He mentions the big, hairy, ugly goal. What are you writing on a piece of paper or sticky note and putting on your college dorm room? And that was his advice—is write something down, put it on the door, and look back at it a couple of times a week. But don’t worry too much, and it’ll come to you. It’ll happen. What would your advice be to maybe someone thinking about Wall Street or investment banking who’s stressed about it and burning hours in the library. What would you tell them now?

(Wendell)

Yeah, there are a couple of things I would say. You always have to strive for excellence, strive for excellence, and be passionate about what you do every day. Tomorrow is not promised to any of us. And so you really need to try to love what you do and to be the best at what you do. So I would start there. And I think the second component is to try to understand and figure out how you can be a force of change and pursue those things that you know that are right and good. And as my father would always tell us, that leadership, people sometimes forget, is that you have to be willing to stand alone, right. If you know it’s the right thing to do because if you’re waiting on the masses, they ain’t coming. You have to be willing to stand or sit and be comfortable that you may be by yourself for a while, but know that what you’re doing is bigger than the moment, it’s bigger than you. And you have to have that sort of unbridled passion and desire and fortitude to do that. And that’s leadership. And generally speaking, if you do it long enough, people will follow. But don’t expect it’s going to happen on day one. You be prepared for that, it may not happen on day 200. But that’s what leadership is about.

(Benny)

Yes, sir. Thank you so much for coming to talk. I like how you said you got to be willing to stand but okay to stand alone or sit alone. Thank you so much for coming on to talk to me.

(Wendell)

Benny, it was a pleasure, always a pleasure.

(Benny)

Yes, sir.